Is Brass Banding in Scotland apathetic?

[dafyddapiago]

I get the feeling that banding in Scotland is on the wane, and is following the movement south of the border; where money rules, and loyalty has gone out of the window.
If we don’t have the enthusiasm, passion, and zeal for the movement, how can we expect the general public to want to come and listen to us.

Discuss!

Dafydd ap Iago

[jjm]

I would disagree with you David that banding in Scotland is on the wane. I believe that we are bucking the trend up here and have a had a vibrant movement in the last few years, but we must keep the momentum going.

Don't get me wrong we do have problems to address, the contest calendar being a notable one. It is a shame to see established contests like Whitburn being cancelled. As you imply the reasons behind this are almost always to do with finance. Sometimes it is like hitting your head against a brick wall when talking to local councils to try and get grants to help towards costs, but we must keep returning and pestering them until they listen. Maybe we need to look at what we are giving them for their money. How many bandsmen and women does your average contest attract into an area and how much money do they spend whilst there. One need only look to the Borders brass band association to see how things could be done. As far as I am concerned they are the model for other local associations to follow.

We must also strive to heighten the profile of brass band music within the arts fraternity of this country. We can only do this with local and central government support and I believe that the SBBA are moving in the right direction in this respect. It is pleasing to note that the West Lothian Challenge is getting airplay on Radio Scotland and we at least have a foot in the door with regard to mass media.

Given the amount of money that gets spent on brass banding in Scotland I don't think you could argue that money rules up here. If you were referring to bands paying players then there is possibly only one band in Scotland who could afford to do that. As for player loyalty, well that is a question for the individual. In my own case I have been with Lochgelly band for the last 16 years. I have had plenty of offers to move in that time but have never wanted to. There are of course cases where exceptional players leave their local bands to play for the top bands; to them I say good luck. If you have the talent and get the opportunity to play with a top band then take it. Just like in football I have never been an advocate of holding on to someone whose ambitions lie much higher.

The major problem facing brass bands, and indeed many other organisations, is maintaining the flow of new talent. There has been a marked decline over the last 20 years of new young players coming through the ranks. I was taught by Jimmy McCarrol in the 70's and early 80's and I grew up with players like Paul Kiernan, George Cameron, Paul Dornan and Willie McMullan. It seems that the education priorities have changed now and kids being taught brass instrumentation are invariably steered into orchestral avenues rather than the local band. There are also less kids coming through now. Why is this. Is it the "playstation generation"; we have seen a similar effect in other fields of the arts and also in sports. Many bands try to run a junior band but all too often they do not have the resources to see it through. Why don't we ditch this model and instead look at running area youth bands, with support from the education authorities. Just look at the success of West Lothian. Where is the Fife youth brass band or the West of Scotland band or the border youth band. As a movement we need to put old rivalries aside and join together in a common cause to ensure our survival.

Bit of a ramble but I'm running for a train now.

[dafyddapiago]

Excellent John,

There is much to commend in what you say, and since moving back to Scotland I have been greatly heartened by the work of the SBBA.
I would underline your final sentence; As a movement we need to put old rivalries aside and join together in a common cause to ensure our survival.
Playing devil's advocate; are you in the majority or the minority? I pray it's the former!

Dafydd ap Iago

[yw]

I remember xxxxxyears ago playing in Kilmarnock Area Schools band which had about 50 brass players and full compliment of percussionists (sp) and a lot of us went on to play for different bands within the area and also outwith the area. The band was very succesful appearing at the Royal Albert Hall three times representing Scotland in the youth championships which was held at the same time as the Nationals and was indeed an honour to play on the same day as the top bands in Britain.

I have very fond memories and am still playing now. I agree with what John said, it would be great if we could have a similar format today, I think North Ayrshire also had a similar set up. I for one wouyld be happy to give of my time in whatever capacity to an all encompassing movement allowing young players to experience some of what I did.

Don't know if this answers your question or is just a bit of a rant, but hopefully you know what I am trying to say.

[smaca]

Another great and topical subject.

The worrying trends for me are;

1. How many bands competed in the 1976,86,96 and 2006
Scottish Championships?I suspect a big decline.
2. Alva solo contest started at 9.00am in the morning
finished at 11pm at night, and was held in 2 halls.No
contest now.
3. Regional solo contests used to have big entries, now if
you enter you are in the prizes, plus zero quartets.
4.Whitburn and Forth Valley contests had 20+ and 30+
bands respectively. No contests now.
5. Strathclyde Charities 20= bands, lucky if there are 6 now.
6. No James McCarrols, Jack Malpass's, James Mccaffety's,
Jim Smiths, Stewart Watsons,Hugh Brennans etc, etc .
anymore.
7. The so called "proffesional" influence in our movement,
which I personally believe contributed to many wrong
decisions and directions being taken.(musically and
administration)

First 6 points are facts, with point 7 being an opinion. Not stating what everyone does not already know, but I totally agree and have the same feeling that"banding in Scotland is on the wane", and at a rapid rate. I believe people are working very hard to stop the rot,and I hope this works. I think there are lots of reasons for decline, but also feel there are lots of answers, and bringing all these answers together(schools,youth bands, SBBA, etc) is the solution.As JJM has highlighted, there are also lots of positives happening also, just don,t know if in the long term that will result in more bands,players competing in the 2016 Scottish Championships. I sincerely hope so.

[jjm]

Stuart, in answer to some of your points

1) 1976 - 56 bands, 1986 - 63 bands, 1996 - 53 bands, 2006 - 51 bands

bit of a purple patch in 86 (21 bands in the 4th section ) but other than that, relatively stable over the last 30 years.

2+3) I have many happy memories of the Alva contest. Solo contests in general have been in decline. At Lochgelly we hold a slow melody contest and that is generally well attended. Perhaps the format is to blame. There are many players who look at those who can play the air varies and simply say "why should I enter, I've got no chance".

4+5) To be fair, the Forth Valley contest was lost due to the demise of the Edinburgh Charities organisation. Whitburn hasn't been lost, yet, but the band need help if they are to keep the contest going. For those contests we have lost others have taken their place e.g. Land O'Burns, Brass in the Park, Borders Entertainment, Scottish Open.

6) Can't argue with this point Stuart, you are spot on. I have very fond memories of lessons with James McCarrol. A true "man o'brass" if ever there was one. He always went out of his way to ensure that his pupils had the best chances to develop as players. Perhaps it's a sign of the times that many teachers no longer are able to do this. Not that they don't want to but rather that the rules under which they have to work restrict what they can do e.g. especially extra-curricular such as taking a pupil to a solo contest on a weekend.

On the point that David mentioned regarding money. Over the last few years the prize money has declined at the Scottish Open and to what effect. The contest is not able to attract the big bands that we hoped for. Many bands look at the cost of coming to the contest and then the prize money on offer and simply say "we can't afford it". Gone are the days when bands would travel to a contest just for the prestige of winning it. Economics have a large part to play in many decisions bands make, and who can blame them for that. At a local level it is much the same look at the prize money on offer for say the Fife or Northern Counties events and compare that with Brass in the Park or Troon; now look at the comparitive entries for each contest...

We live in a vastly different society now to the one my generation were educated and brought up in. How many of our parents owned their own home; it's relevant because today we invariably work longer hours to pay the mortgage which in turn leaves less time for doing things with the kids. Also, many parents are wary of leaving their children in the care of anyone else, because of this the childs opportunities are lessened because almost every activity involves a parent tagging along.

[Sharpy]

When I started playing with my local band, Porthywaen Silver, 20 years ago, they had a learners, Junior and Senior Bands. The Junior and Senior Bands had 40+ players in both and the learner band varied from15 to 25 players.

Now the Senior Band is down to a normal size band and sometimes struggles to maintain full rehearsals. At one time there were 7 Basses, 8 Euph/Baris, 6 Horns and 5 Trombones in the Senior Band!!

The point I think Im trying to make is that its a trend thats happening all over the country. In PSB's case I think its down to the fact that the latest conductor is not a product of the band. he came from outside and didn't like the fact that the Senior Band was so big and went about reducing it.

Is this possibly what is happening all over the country? As was mentioned before, the so called profesionals of the banding world taking over from the home grown talents?

Am I making any sense?!!

[smaca]

Great input from John and Richard with a lot of good points of view.Its encouraging for the future when there are people like this involved in the movement.

Without sounding repetitive, in 1986 there were 63 bands competing, this year 51. The purple patch was partly due to all the afore mentioned tutors dedicating hours to teaching and bringing through youngsters.What happened to the 12 bands that no longer compete or exist? This year was the lowest ever entry in decades. The amount of bands is declining,whatever way you look at it. If it was 63 bands in 1986, why was it not 73 in 1996, and 83 this year? The trend is going the wrong way.Will there be more or less than 51 bands in 2007?

Like business and other organisations(even health issues), declines can be dramatic. If the situation is terminal(and I hope brass band situation in Scotland is not) suddenly there is a dramatic slide in condition which happens quickly.I hope this is not the case, as even already I am hearing scary stories(although only rumours) of numerous bands that since summer break are struggling to keep it together as a unit.

When I read over the above it seems very negative and all doom and gloom. It's not intended to be, and as highlighted by others, there are also a lot of positives happening as well. Just hope these positives begin to turn the fortunes of brass bands in scotland, as currently the figures don,t lie.(amount of bands,amount of withdrawls from contests, the closure of contests, the average attendances at rehearsals,players/conductors "retiring" due to commitment issues)

Great subject.

[dafyddapiago]

Yes there are some excellent, passionate, zealots for the movement like my "old" friend Peter Fraser and John Martin and members of the SBBA; but judging by the replies so far I would reckon that none of them are under 35 years of age. Where are the younger generation, who should be most enthused with the movement?

Competition, whether full band or solo, has been the life blood of banding and is the reason why we have such a high standard of technical excellence. Unfortunately the demise in slow melody competition is reflected in the lack of musicality, and quality of sound heard today (IMHO).

Bands do fewer concerts, especially the summer season concerts in the park; which is another reason for the decline in income of many bands.

I also think the enthusiasm, and standard of brass teaching is on the decline in education as that older generation mentioned have retired. Also the pupils have less contact time with the teachers, and there is far too much paper work, which can drain the enthusiasm of the teacher. The requirements for Standard grade and Highers is considerably lower; which encourages some young people into higher education with the hope of a career.

Finally the word "professional" is mis-used by many so called conductors, who I wouldn't pay the train fare for. They follow lines instead of hearing the score in the head before waving the arms.

Dafydd ap Iago

P.S.
Am I being too pessimistic, or is it the lack of breakfast this morning?

[craigyboy]

Hello all,
I'm going to offer up some positives here as I don't think Scottish banding is as poorly as you think.
Many bands still have junior and learner sections and are producing talented players.
I live in a town which has two bands containing junior/learner sections.

West Lothian Schools continues to be the best youth band in Britain and has consistently helped to develop top players. I can't comment first hand but I believe Nigel Bodice top be a great teacher and source of encouragement for our young players.
Think about the players who have come through WLS.

Campbeltown Brass are another band who continue to encourage and develop young players and have also produced some of todays star players.

NYBBS is a good as ever I hear.

If we measure in terms of contesting success then the results over the past 10-15 years (I think) will be unmatched in previous eras. West Lothian Schools dominate at youth level, COOP have won the Nationals twice, and the Masters, Whitburn were second at the Open, Kirkie won the Grand Shield, and Kingdom have won the Senior Trophy.
Whitburn Kirkie and COOP compete regularly with the nations best and are always a force to be reckoned with.

I also don't think the talent coming through has dried up:

I'll start by making a few apologies
1. I apologize if I have spelled your name incorrectly.
2. Sorry if I have left you out by thinking you are older than you are!!
3. I apologize if your name is not here because I'm not aware or have forgotten you. I have just written a quick list of the first names that came to mind.


In no particular order:
Graham Mculloch Former Principal cornet Brighouse,YBS,professional trumpet etc
Alan Gourlay Principal Bb Bass Whitburn
Caroline Munroe Rep Scottish COOP Principal NYBBS
Rachel Baxter Solo Horn Scottish COOP
Morvern Gilchrist Assistant Principal Black Dyke
Iain Culross Principal Cornet Sellers
Sheona White Solo Horn YBS
Martyn Ramsey Flugel Kirkie
Richard Kidd Solo Euph Whitburn
Scott Forrest Sop Whitburn
Graham Fraser Principal Eb bass Whitburn
Mark Boyd Formerly Solo Trom Whitburn and 1st class trombone player
Gregor Stewart Scottish Solo Champion and 1st class trombone player
Craig Anderson Conductor Kingdom brass/ professional Tuba
Dave Prentice Principal cornet Kirkie
Angela Wheelan Professional Trumpet
Katrina Marzella Principal Baritone Fairey
Neil Philip Solo Euph Newtongrange

All young(ish) class players from Scotland over recent years and a couple of Besson ambassadors thrown in for good measure.

As I have said this is just a quick list and I am sure I have missed as many as I have listed.

Some contests have gone such as Forth Valley but we have a new ones in Troon, Scottish Open, and Whitburn is only cancelled not dead.

It's great that people take the time to discuss these issues and I'm personally a little wary of posting.
It's difficult to put your point across as without "tone of voice" in a posting as you can often be misinterpreted.

I'm not having a go.

I just don't think its all that bad

Craig.

[dafyddapiago]

I accept everything you've said, but you've missed one name off the list; Craig Robertson has been one of the most underrated principal cornets around.

Now perhaps others will come out of the woodwork, and have a go; which is why I started this thread.

Dafydd ap Iago

[craigyboy]

I only registered on here a couple of weeks ago but it is now the first forum I check.
There are great threads and proper discussions which are interesting,and informative.

Craig

p.s. IMHO there is no higher praise. Thank you DJ.
I can't find a smiley which blushes.

[Sharpy]

Just for the record, Im under 30!! But only for another 25 days!!!! ;D

[smaca]

More great points of view, and very positive ones highlighted by Craig. Can, t disagree with these positives, and is all good news.

If I can be so bold and highlight another worrying trend for me, and that's the size of audiences attending/listening to these contests. The old Edinburgh Charities, Scottish Regionals and Whitburn 10/20 years ago were packed houses, particularly when the "bigger" bands came on. An alternative to these contests as highlighted(The Scotish Open) was alarming last year with regards to the amount of people in the hall.

The band I play with were on fairly early and there were a maximum of 20 people in the hall to listen. No we are not a "big" band, but even still, no interest from the many hundreds out in the corridors. Approx. and hour later, the Scottish Co-op came on stage, with Roger Webster guesting, and this time lucky if there were 50 in the hall. Again, audience trend is downwards, and may if not addressed, result in the demise of this contest in time.


I will thank Craig also for highlighting the "tone of voice" concept in postings. It is difficult to express via e-mail without being mis-interpreted.Again, mines sounds negative, but it,s just another area of concern for me.

So I suppose what I am asking is, with there being so many great players and bands about (as highlighted) why does very few people compared to years gone by, want to go into a hall and listen to them?

PS

Maybe I need some cheery pills!

[dafyddapiago]

sharpy said:

Just for the record, Im under 30!! But only for another 25 days!!!! ;D

Under 30, Welsh, and a trombone player; will you ever go to Heaven?

Diolch yn fawr,

Dafydd